Subject: [.plan] Interview im Dazed & Confused Magazine
From: Boris Kraut <[email-masked]>
To: undisclosed-recipients: ;
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 15:16:45 +0100

Anfang des Jahres kam eine Anfrage von Stephen Fortune, Tech Editor
beim Dazed&Confused Magazine [0], ob man von Seiten des "Chaos macht
Schule"-Projekts zu einem Interview bereit waere. Wir haben damals
natuerlich gern geantwortet, auch wenn es das ganze dann am Ende
nicht in die finale Ausgabe (Juni 2013 bzw. "Hacktivism"-Sonderheft,
wenn jemand nachschauen kann/will) oder DazedDigital [1] geschafft
hat. Wie dem auch sei, hier ist die Rohversion aus dem Etherpad --
entsprechend koennen also noch viele Fehler, unuebersetzte Teile oder
Arbeitskommentare drin sein, aber ich denke man kann damit etwas 
anfangen. Inhaltlich ist da einiges von mir drin, aber es gibt auch 
Fragen an denen ich ueberhaupt nicht mitgearbeitet habe. Ich glaube
man kann mich aber ganz gut rauslesen:

> What do children who participate in the hack camp learn?

They learn about electronics, computer security, and media literacy. Our
workshops range from soldering little electronic insects, music boxes
and similar gadgets they can take home over real-life security
demonstrations of email to plain talks and Q&A session about social
networks, sharing music legally etc.

> What tools/devices to they get to use?

Well, it really depends on the age. Some never used a screwdriver, so we
just let them open some pc (or other devices), look inside and
connect/disconnect the cables, but most children will take a workshop on
how to solder simple circuits with e.g. a battery, a resistor, a LED and
a small motor. We love it when they built their own things and gadgets
to take home with them: "It makes noise, it blinks and I have built it
my own!" It can't get any better, can it?

> Are educational video games used to communicate the concepts of
> computer science?

The whole educational community is going crazy about all those new shiny
toys: MOOCs, video tutoring, gamification. We like those ideas and use
them if it's appropriate. We also once had a visit by
https://primerlabs.com/unityversity which was quite nice and looks
interesting. However, while all these possibilities are great if you
have or want to learn on your own, we deeply believe in "personal
education", meaning that you have someone there to help and mentor you
if needed. And one last thing: Just because it's about learning, doesn't
mean it can't be the next Facebook.

> What range of activities do they partake in over the course of the camp?

The Camp is "only" the playground, the infrastructure for the visitors.
Chaos macht Schule won't have a special project-place on the camp (as
far as I know), but some members will be there and participate.

> Do they learn how to unlock devices?

Unlocking devices always has the risk of bricking them. Even if you tell
attendees, some won't realize it. We don't want a kid which can't afford
a new smartphone to leave with a unusable device afterwards. So, no, we
don't do this with people who come by for only a 2 hr workshop. The main
goal is not to show how to unlock anything; the main goal is to explain
and let them understand how things work. If they find a way to
creatively circumvent a lock (eg, the famous kingston lock with the
paper tube), that's fine - but this isn't the goal of any workshop.

> Will the Raspberry Pi feature prominently in this years camp?

This years camp is organized by the Dutch hacker scene and the CCC only
takes part in form of its members visiting. What will be presented at
the camp depends mostly on its visitors. If there are people bringing
their Raspberry Pi's and building awesome installations, then yes. The
Pi is, in our eyes, just another tool; it is a great possibility to show
and use physical computing, but not suitable for children who are only
attending a 2hrs workshop where they should learn soldering or similar
activities. It is great for learn how to program, though.

Since we were in need for some easy-to-understand and easy-to-build
hardware platform before the Raspberry Pi, a group of the CCC developed
the so-called "Pentabug" (circuit design and software here:
https://github.com/c3d2/pentabug), a small computer which can be
assembled even by young kids; there is a fun default software which can
be the basis for first programming experiments as well.

> Are you still learning as you go, or do you bring in educators that
> specialise in teaching coding to children?

Chaos macht Schule is a project which is very good for 'new' hackers who
do not trust their skills much yet. Because every little bit of
knowledge we have is much more than any pupil in early middleschool has.
So, yes, we learn as we go, especially the skills of how to work with
kids and teach topics in an understandable way. However, some of our
fellow hackers are indeed student and profressional teachers in their
day-to-day life.

> How much self reliance do kids learn from the camp?

We'd like to see their self reliance going up and encourage them to
explore things on their own, make mistakes and figure out what went
wrong and how to fix it. However, there are some risks we have to advise
and take proactive cautions against, e.g. dangers, like burning skin
while soldering. We also make it clear, that (in the programming world)
bad programs can affect performance or even destroy data -- not only for
themselves, but for others, too.

> CCC seems closely aligned to 'black hat' coding practices -- how is
> that philosophy communicated to children?

We don't see ourselves as blackhats. However, the picture of hackers in
general might be different. So, especially when visiting schools and
other public institutions, we are sometimes faced by fear. Teachers and
parents have concerns, that we might show or do 'bad things', while the
kids are eager to know 'how to hack' a computer game, a web services or
the schools database. Usually we give both sides the whole run down on
the difference between black and white hackers, the hacker ethics our
club is based on and explain why we would do certain things, but not
other things. We make it clear that our intent is not to break any laws
or take personal advantage of the results of a hack, but to make the
world a better place by showing flaws, spreading the word about it,
discussing them widely and fixing them.

Beyond that, our activities with young children focus on the creative
side of life; they are about having fun with creating ones own hardware
and software and about lowering the hurdle of getting in touch with
technology. Children should see computer technology and electronics as
building platform for creative and fun experiments, not as a magic black
box.

In discussions we try to "lead" the discussion a way that they find an
ethical way by themselves -- don't do bad things to other persons you
don't want to receive for yourself; or don't publish things just for the
fun of it because it may hurt other people. It is one of our most
important messages that there is a difference between hacking and
Cracking - and that the philosophy of the club is and always was to
protect private data and to publish/use public data.

> Are children of different ages taught different things?

While our overall goals and principles stay the same, we use different
methods and subjects depending on the audience's skills, interests, age,
educational level and role (parents, teacher, pupils, ...): On the
electronic side, we have projects with some cables, screwdrivers, a
loudspeaker for little children; we have different soldering projects up
to "build your own blinkenlight". On the talk-level, we have a basic
introduction to privacy and some talks about social networks and
interactions -- for pupils, for parents, for teachers. We need and have
to address students of a different age in a different way. It's
interesting how you can deliver the same message on different levels.

> How have children navigated the learning curve?

This is one of the biggest challenges of the project. We often do not
know the level of the audience, how quick they will pick up new
information and how much they can take at once. There's many factors we
take into consideration like type of school, age, time of the day and if
the audience came to us or is forced to listen to us by their teacher.
To adjust to these levels is one of our most valuable skills we gather
by experience.

Though generally we are very impressed by the quick learning speed of
young kids and their interest in the matter. Often enough it happens
that we run out of time because the audience is engaging us in a
discussion about the topic at hand. Sadly one workshop is usually just
enough to show that there is an abundance of topics they never heard
about and which interests them.

Luckily, some of our groups are within a project which runs for over one
year, teaching students on a regular basis. I'd say the children are
reacting quite well on this approach.

> The flash points of digital culture right now are ownership (being able
> to unlock what you purchase) and privacy (secure communication absent of
> unsolicited data gathering practiced by corporations). Both of these
> important concepts are totally irrelevant to the average childs priority
> set. Do these topics feature in the hacking camps, and if so how are
> they relayed to a young audience?

They are already part of our talks, e.g. about facebook and social
networks in general. Usually I agree, the children do not care for these
topics. But we usually make some games - examples - and try to let them
find out what it means being public -- or not to "own" a piece of music.
And we show them then alternatives or possibilities to still
communicate, but without using the proprietary software and hardware of
corporations, which have spying built-in for free.

We are quite aware, that most people -- kids and grown-ups alike --
won't stop using these after visiting a two hour workshop. However, we
take pride in the fact, that they might take their time to actually
decide themselves. We show them an other side, we teach them the
necessary skills, but the decision is of their own. We can't force them
to be free.

[0] http://www.exacteditions.com/magazine/396/434
[1] http://www.dazeddigital.com/